Webcomic Existential Philosophy

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Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Amon Star » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:24 pm

As recommended by Hogan, this Thread is for those of you that want to hold long discussions about the nature of Webcomic Reality, how it relates to our own, & similar.

So to start the ball rolling, I bring forth a personal peeve of mine. Whatever the nature of Webcomic Reality, Forum Reality is automatically weaker & more corrupt. Also, the latter is infectious & should not be allowed to influence the former, unless it is under very controlled conditions/through a very strong filter. What does anyone else say?

So, either continue with that line or thought, or start your own. Our ignore me completely. The chose is yours, unless it isn't.
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Postby fesworks » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:52 pm

Not entirely sure what you are talking about exactly....

In general... if I am getting you right.... Forum Reality does not work in comic form in the same way that Webcomics do. Forums are text-based and Webcomics are graphic-based. The only way around it is to do a Comic JAM.

This can be done by discussing in a separate forum (or along with the thread as long as its not considered canon until in comic form), PMs or e-mail of what will happen and who will say what, or done more like a traditional comic JAM.

However, it may be better just to stick with the Forum or IRC based discussions and just reference what happens into a comic after the fact. However, this route, as the trouble with any unregulated RP situation, might allow impossible feats and nerfing of characters and situations.

In closing, I will probably never again participate (or attempt to coordinate) a Forum-Based RP+Comic, unless its closer to a Traditional Comic Jam.
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Postby littlebeast » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:21 am

IMO, there is nothing inherently inferior about forumverses, in fact they're quite fun ^_^.

However, problems can arise, for several reasons:
1: Pace.
Basically, who's doing the action varies depending on who's on. Many times, this will create a situation in which two characters have a long conversation while all the others are frozen. However, this generally isn't too big a problem. ^.-
2: Disinformation.
Since forumites are on basically the same level as readers, they generally are not informed on what's supposed to be going on. This means they can accidentally muck it up. This is not easily solved, as letting the forumites know the surprises also reveals it to other readers. There are basically two ways to prevent this: a, have the plot be only loosely defined, so it can adapt, or b, railroad them via comics and "official" forum posts.
3: Godmoders.
Enough said.

Now, on another note: There has been some discussion already on webcomic(or forum) awareness and sentience, i.e. some people think they're the same. Personally, I think they have nearly nothing to do with each other. Sentience is whether or not the character has a personality, free will, etc. Webcomic awareness is simply knowing that you're in a work of fiction. Sentience develops over time, as the character interacts, but WCA is just granted by the author; either the character has it or they don't. I don't see any reason why they'd be related.
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Postby fesworks » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:26 am

I don't like the forum situation because it's too delayed. Kinda like a table-top RPG (World of Darkness or D&D) with no Story Teller or Dungeon Master, and everyone's actions are solidified in turn.
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Postby Ti-Phil » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:42 pm

There are, as said before, different levels of WCA, or rather awareness that what we do is not our own will.

For characters :
Level 0 : Has no idea what is going on and live his or her life, having adventures and such.
Level 1 : Someone who is fated to do something. He or she knows that doing this is inevitable "according to the prophecy".
Level 2 : Author aknowledgement. The characters can interact with the author, mostly by words (or in some comic, with the Author's avatar).
Level 3 : Aware they are in a comic. This is where most of the fourth wall breaking comes in. Talking to the audience and such.
Level 4 : Interracting with the readers or the readers avatar. This is the level where boundaries are lost and where most of the crossover wars went after the inclusion of the forums.
Level 5 : Manipulation of the comic in Author-like way : Catnap and the Editor.
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Postby fesworks » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:54 pm

Ti-Phil wrote:There are, as said before, different levels of WCA, or rather awareness that what we do is not our own will.

For characters :
Level 0 : Has no idea what is going on and live his or her life, having adventures and such.
Level 1 : Someone who is fated to do something. He or she knows that doing this is inevitable "according to the prophecy".
Level 2 : Author aknowledgement. The characters can interact with the author, mostly by words (or in some comic, with the Author's avatar).
Level 3 : Aware they are in a comic. This is where most of the fourth wall breaking comes in. Talking to the audience and such.
Level 4 : Interracting with the readers or the readers avatar. This is the level where boundaries are lost and where most of the crossover wars went after the inclusion of the forums.
Level 5 : Manipulation of the comic in Author-like way : Catnap and the Editor.


Level 4 sounds... inaccurate slightly. "Interacting with readers is almost the same as Level 3 with talking to the readers via the 4th wall. Including reader avatars, which would only exist if allowed into the comic... independent of the Comic characters.

However, I believe a better Level 4 explanation would be:

Level 4: Cognizance and even interaction of other media avatars and/or with other media existences. (Can go to other media by own will, instead of author's.)

hmmm.... re-thinking things....

I would personally rewrite everything from a different perspective, like this

-----------------------------------------

Level 0 : No Awareness. No Free Will. No Independent Thought.
Mere puppet of author. Any expression of existence or 4th wall is purely by Author's desires and is not genuine of the character themselves.

Level .5 : Crossover and Cameos are handled as non-consequential or "strange" people/creatures. Perhaps from another planet or dimension depending on Comic.

-----------------------------------------

Level 1 : Self-Aware. Minor Free Will. Minor Independent Thought.
Knows/believes that they exist. Perhaps believes in fate or greater power that controls most everything.

Level 1.5 : Crossover and Cameos are handled as before, except may have a strange feeling that they are more foreign than they seem.

-----------------------------------------

Level 2 : Self-Aware. Limited Free Will. Some Independent Thought.
Author or "god" acknowledgment. The characters can interact with the author. (Talking to the "sky" or "in-person" with author's avatar).

Level 2.5 : Crossover and Cameos are handled as people/creatures from some other world, dimension, or existence (if not somehow apart of their own). The level of this understanding depends on what the Author tells them or lets on.

-----------------------------------------

Level 3 : Self and World Aware. Some Free Will. Independent Thought.
They know they are in a "fictional" medium. Able to interact with the audience of own choice. May be able to "see" outside the 4th wall.

Level 3.5 : Crossover and Cameos are handled as patrons from other "fictional" media. They know if they are apart of their own world or not. They may know just as much about these other media as their own.

-----------------------------------------

Level 4 : Fully Self, World Aware. Semi-Other World Aware. Free Will. Independent Thought.
Have cognizance and even interaction of and with other media avatars and/or with other media existences. Understanding of "real" world and the "Fictional" worlds.

Level 4.5 : Characters may travel to other "fictional" media without consent/will of author. May show minor Level 5 abilities, perhaps by author or creator assistance. (i.e.: Pencils)

-----------------------------------------

Level 5 : Fully Delf-Aware. Fully World and other-world Aware. Free Will. Independent Thought.
Manipulation of the comic in Author-like way : Catnap and the Editor.

Level 5.5 : Able to leave comic and go to the "real world" of own will.

-----------------------------------------

Level 6 : The Pinocchio Theory.

-----------------------------------------



This is my best idea for the philosophy behind it all. What do you think?


Maybe, we need a level system for readers, creators, writers, and artists when talking about the WCA... WCA, really, as we all have been toying with it, exists as it's own idea... seperate from "novel awareness"... since we have attributed our own rules to it.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Keybounce » Thu May 13, 2010 9:10 am

Bumpy

I'm going to approach this question from the viewpoint of a paper-and-pencil role player. And, from the viewpoint of someone who was involved in an early online fantasy WoW-style game, that actually billed itself as an online RPG. (Gaa, I can't remember the name ...)

To make a long story short: In that game, there was very little RP-story provided by the game itself, while the game was a very good environment in which to play an RP game. It made a good framework, without forcing a specific story on the players.

That's good and bad. It's good if you have a good GM to keep track of things.

Where it failed -- BADLY -- was that the Role Playing on that game was heavily involved with the people that you interacted with -- both in-game-world and in-forum. It was driven by people who were vocal about what they were doing.

And, years later, I realized that it had a fatal break from the normal paper-and-pencil / GM-and-players role playing.

In a normal RPG, the players and the GM are interacting to tell the story of characters and a made up world. The players tell what they do; the GM responds with what the world does.

In this failure online game, the players who were vocal told the other players both what they did and what the world did in response.

What happens in a typical forum war? Forumers tell you what happens. Again, no GM -- the vocal tell you what the world does, and the comic people either accept it or they don't.

Can a role playing game succeed without an editor? Without a GM? Sure. But it requires people who can Role Play. People who can separate player knowledge from character knowledge. This isn't something you get by default -- this is something that I've done in enough games to be good at, but it was definitely something I had to learn. And, it requires that players have that knowledge.

Fesworks wrote:...In closing, I will probably never again participate (or attempt to coordinate) a Forum-Based RP+Comic, unless its closer to a Traditional Comic Jam.

I don't know what a "Comic Jam" is. Do you actually shread up a comic and boil all the life out of it, and then add tons-o-sugar? Far, far better (I think) to introduce a "GM character" poster, with the view that the forumites can do whatever they want, following their own rules -- be it bringing out crates of TF guns, sending deliveries of newbie packages to comic characters, assembling fleets of ships, or whatever -- but when they do something that interacts with the comic characters, all they say is what they are doing, not what the results will be. That has to come from the GM character (who either is, or talks with, the comic story writers), and the most interesting / plot relevant results get drawn into the story.

Fesworks wrote: ... rewrite ...

Interesting list ...
(my own view isn't that far from The Editor's view.)
Level 1 : Self-Aware. Minor Free Will. Minor Independent Thought.
Knows/believes that they exist. Perhaps believes in fate or greater power that controls most everything.

That's not too far from most "real" people.
Level 2 : Self-Aware. Limited Free Will. Some Independent Thought.
Author or "god" acknowledgment. The characters can interact with the author. (Talking to the "sky" or "in-person" with author's avatar).

And real people pray.
Level 3 : Self and World Aware. Some Free Will. Independent Thought.
They know they are in a "fictional" medium. Able to interact with the audience of own choice. May be able to "see" outside the 4th wall.

Sounds a bit like the Buddhist belief, as well as others.

Level 4 : Fully Self, World Aware. Semi-Other World Aware. Free Will. Independent Thought.
Have cognizance and even interaction of and with other media avatars and/or with other media existences. Understanding of "real" world and the "Fictional" worlds.

I think we call these people "insane" and lock them up. Not sure. Either that, or psychics, or ghost hunters, or paranormals, etc.

Something to keep in mind: Even if you "have free will", your culture will restrict your choices on what you do something like 95-98% of the time. Whether you call it culture, or "not being WCA", the results are the same -- your actions are less your choice, and more your environment / upbringing. Even in The Crossover -- look at the WCA'd Jenny, and Fellbrook telling her to make a choice, and then later that same issue with Catnap.

Culture is probably a bigger restriction on what you do than WCA or not. Unless you're in a late period WB style comic, where random twists out of nowhere are the norm, you aren't going to pull an anvil out of nowhere to drop on an enemy even if you are WCA -- your culture, upbringing, etc, will restrict what you even think of.

Level 5 : Fully Delf-Aware. Fully World and other-world Aware. Free Will. Independent Thought.
Manipulation of the comic in Author-like way : Catnap and the Editor.

And even these characters -- except Chaos and other GoGo-like characers -- will have limits on what they do.


That list seems not too far from real world
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Amon Star » Sat May 15, 2010 11:14 am

Keybounce wrote:Far, far better (I think) to introduce a "GM character" poster, with the view that the forumites can do whatever they want, following their own rules -- be it bringing out crates of TF guns, sending deliveries of newbie packages to comic characters, assembling fleets of ships, or whatever -- but when they do something that interacts with the comic characters, all they say is what they are doing, not what the results will be. That has to come from the GM character (who either is, or talks with, the comic story writers), and the most interesting / plot relevant results get drawn into the story.

I GM would only work if they have the authority to evict troublesome people from the Crossover. Otherwise, they would get ignored by the vocals.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby malanthyus » Sun May 16, 2010 1:09 pm

*edited due to misinterpretation of the points presented.

My intention only being to open the possibility there is something beyond simply aware of being within a fictional medium, and the concept of intereacting with other fictional mediums.
Stop worrying so much about the fourth wall, and start worrying about the fifth.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby DatabaseError » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:02 am

Amon Star wrote:
Keybounce wrote:Far, far better (I think) to introduce a "GM character" poster, with the view that the forumites can do whatever they want, following their own rules -- be it bringing out crates of TF guns, sending deliveries of newbie packages to comic characters, assembling fleets of ships, or whatever -- but when they do something that interacts with the comic characters, all they say is what they are doing, not what the results will be. That has to come from the GM character (who either is, or talks with, the comic story writers), and the most interesting / plot relevant results get drawn into the story.

I GM would only work if they have the authority to evict troublesome people from the Crossover. Otherwise, they would get ignored by the vocals.


Which is why I think that the way a "forum crossover" should be handled is by audition. Allow people to submit characters, pick the good ones, and then take writing samples from the players to see if they're good enough to invite onboard as a warmonger. If they aren't, ask permission to simply use the character under your own authorship. I think a lot of forumites would love the chance to have their persona featured in a comic, even if they themselves didn't write it.

Spinoff RPs are still cool, but they should be moderated (as any RP that eventually involves conflict should,) and they shouldn't interact directly with the main storyline. Throwing references and cameos around between the two would still work, but anything more should be avoided.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Amon Star » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:50 am

DatabaseError wrote:
Amon Star wrote:
Keybounce wrote:Far, far better (I think) to introduce a "GM character" poster, with the view that the forumites can do whatever they want, following their own rules -- be it bringing out crates of TF guns, sending deliveries of newbie packages to comic characters, assembling fleets of ships, or whatever -- but when they do something that interacts with the comic characters, all they say is what they are doing, not what the results will be. That has to come from the GM character (who either is, or talks with, the comic story writers), and the most interesting / plot relevant results get drawn into the story.

I GM would only work if they have the authority to evict troublesome people from the Crossover. Otherwise, they would get ignored by the vocals.


Which is why I think that the way a "forum crossover" should be handled is by audition. Allow people to submit characters, pick the good ones, and then take writing samples from the players to see if they're good enough to invite onboard as a warmonger. If they aren't, ask permission to simply use the character under your own authorship. I think a lot of forumites would love the chance to have their persona featured in a comic, even if they themselves didn't write it.

Spinoff RPs are still cool, but they should be moderated (as any RP that eventually involves conflict should,) and they shouldn't interact directly with the main storyline. Throwing references and cameos around between the two would still work, but anything more should be avoided.

I like the audition idea, though the ability to evict people would still be necessary. I've known a lot of people that act perfectly reasonable until the chips are down.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby DatabaseError » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:05 pm

Amon Star wrote:
DatabaseError wrote:
Amon Star wrote:I GM would only work if they have the authority to evict troublesome people from the Crossover. Otherwise, they would get ignored by the vocals.


Which is why I think that the way a "forum crossover" should be handled is by audition. Allow people to submit characters, pick the good ones, and then take writing samples from the players to see if they're good enough to invite onboard as a warmonger. If they aren't, ask permission to simply use the character under your own authorship. I think a lot of forumites would love the chance to have their persona featured in a comic, even if they themselves didn't write it.

Spinoff RPs are still cool, but they should be moderated (as any RP that eventually involves conflict should,) and they shouldn't interact directly with the main storyline. Throwing references and cameos around between the two would still work, but anything more should be avoided.

I like the audition idea, though the ability to evict people would still be necessary. I've known a lot of people that act perfectly reasonable until the chips are down.


That would be a problem. I guess you'd have to give them the option of withdrawing their character in some way or keeping the character in the story but turning control over to one of the other warmongers.

Also, something slightly more on-topic: From an in-character standpoint, the comic reality could be some sort of pocket universe contained within our own, possibly created and maintained by some sort of unconscious psychic field (the imagination of the author(s). Forums, of course, would be created by a psychic gestalt of all the players, which is why they're more fluid.) That also solves some ontological inertia issues that "parallel universes" wouldn't. For example, if a character were to escape to the real world and kill their author, it would be expected that the character wouldn't exist, since there's nobody to write them. With the whole "psychic field" explanation, that would just automatically work without having to add in extra explanations; remove the field, and the universe and character cease to exist.

Of course, from an out of character standpoint, we realize it's just a story. And, depending on how much awareness you want a character to have, they might realize it, too. The problem I see with that level of awareness, unless it's played for comedic effect (as with deadpool,) is that they're hard to make believable. Actually, it's not just hard to make a character believable, it's hard to make a universe that melds the real-world and fiction on such a scale without running into some strange logical conundrums. I keep hitting weird loops when I think about writing those situations: Thinking about it, it's impossible to let the character know they're just a character, and still maintain the illusion of them having free will. Once you introduce an author, unless you're using an "alternate universe" explanation like I posited above, you've essentially demonstrated that nobody in that story has free will. Destroying somebody's idea of free will would logically damage their psyche, but the problem here is that, because you've introduced the idea that they're fictional into the fiction itself, the characters should no longer have enough individuality to be angsty, unless the author writes them that way. Which just ends up making the story look like some sort of crazy puppeteer putting on a show.

...

Okay, this post went places. I honestly had no idea what I was going to write before I started writing :?
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Amon Star » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:34 am

DatabaseError wrote:That would be a problem. I guess you'd have to give them the option of withdrawing their character in some way or keeping the character in the story but turning control over to one of the other warmongers.

Also, something slightly more on-topic: From an in-character standpoint, the comic reality could be some sort of pocket universe contained within our own, possibly created and maintained by some sort of unconscious psychic field (the imagination of the author(s). Forums, of course, would be created by a psychic gestalt of all the players, which is why they're more fluid.) That also solves some ontological inertia issues that "parallel universes" wouldn't. For example, if a character were to escape to the real world and kill their author, it would be expected that the character wouldn't exist, since there's nobody to write them. With the whole "psychic field" explanation, that would just automatically work without having to add in extra explanations; remove the field, and the universe and character cease to exist.

Of course, from an out of character standpoint, we realize it's just a story. And, depending on how much awareness you want a character to have, they might realize it, too. The problem I see with that level of awareness, unless it's played for comedic effect (as with deadpool,) is that they're hard to make believable. Actually, it's not just hard to make a character believable, it's hard to make a universe that melds the real-world and fiction on such a scale without running into some strange logical conundrums. I keep hitting weird loops when I think about writing those situations: Thinking about it, it's impossible to let the character know they're just a character, and still maintain the illusion of them having free will. Once you introduce an author, unless you're using an "alternate universe" explanation like I posited above, you've essentially demonstrated that nobody in that story has free will. Destroying somebody's idea of free will would logically damage their psyche, but the problem here is that, because you've introduced the idea that they're fictional into the fiction itself, the characters should no longer have enough individuality to be angsty, unless the author writes them that way. Which just ends up making the story look like some sort of crazy puppeteer putting on a show.

...

Okay, this post went places. I honestly had no idea what I was going to write before I started writing :?

Regarding the "No Freewill" issue, I can answer that. Many Authors say the best characters write themselves, completely derailing what the Author originally planned. Therefore, in that case it would be possible for them to be Aware without the loss of Freewill.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby DatabaseError » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:45 am

Amon Star wrote:
DatabaseError wrote:That would be a problem. I guess you'd have to give them the option of withdrawing their character in some way or keeping the character in the story but turning control over to one of the other warmongers.

Also, something slightly more on-topic: From an in-character standpoint, the comic reality could be some sort of pocket universe contained within our own, possibly created and maintained by some sort of unconscious psychic field (the imagination of the author(s). Forums, of course, would be created by a psychic gestalt of all the players, which is why they're more fluid.) That also solves some ontological inertia issues that "parallel universes" wouldn't. For example, if a character were to escape to the real world and kill their author, it would be expected that the character wouldn't exist, since there's nobody to write them. With the whole "psychic field" explanation, that would just automatically work without having to add in extra explanations; remove the field, and the universe and character cease to exist.

Of course, from an out of character standpoint, we realize it's just a story. And, depending on how much awareness you want a character to have, they might realize it, too. The problem I see with that level of awareness, unless it's played for comedic effect (as with deadpool,) is that they're hard to make believable. Actually, it's not just hard to make a character believable, it's hard to make a universe that melds the real-world and fiction on such a scale without running into some strange logical conundrums. I keep hitting weird loops when I think about writing those situations: Thinking about it, it's impossible to let the character know they're just a character, and still maintain the illusion of them having free will. Once you introduce an author, unless you're using an "alternate universe" explanation like I posited above, you've essentially demonstrated that nobody in that story has free will. Destroying somebody's idea of free will would logically damage their psyche, but the problem here is that, because you've introduced the idea that they're fictional into the fiction itself, the characters should no longer have enough individuality to be angsty, unless the author writes them that way. Which just ends up making the story look like some sort of crazy puppeteer putting on a show.

...

Okay, this post went places. I honestly had no idea what I was going to write before I started writing :?

Regarding the "No Freewill" issue, I can answer that. Many Authors say the best characters write themselves, completely derailing what the Author originally planned. Therefore, in that case it would be possible for them to be Aware without the loss of Freewill.


Not necessarily. Maybe that would be the case in something like a free-form RP, where there's no plot, but once you've introduced the idea of an author (which usually means a plot,) you've got a situation where things are more or less "on rails." Sure, there's some wiggle room, but things will likely still happen the way they're supposed to happen for the plot.

Of course, this has a lot to do with my opinion. IMO, characters should evolve from the plot, not the other way around. The point of a story is typically the plot, and the characters are there to advance the plot.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby littlebeast » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:33 am

Amon Star wrote:
DatabaseError wrote:lots of stuff

Regarding the "No Freewill" issue, I can answer that. Many Authors say the best characters write themselves, completely derailing what the Author originally planned. Therefore, in that case it would be possible for them to be Aware without the loss of Freewill.


Indeed. I actually feel like I have very little control of what's happening in the present of the comic. I can set up situations, yeah, but even I don't know where it's going to go. The best I can do is try to nudge characters in the right direction, which doesn't always work.

Also, no offense meant to anyone, but in real life many people believe in an omnipotent god - how is that any less detracting of free will? Or rather, how is being in a story any more opposed to free will?
(for that matter, how is it any different in any other way - but that's not a discussion for this thread. Well, it might be. But.)

Hmm. I know my stories almost always seem to rely on the characters as the driving force, and the plot is just a way to get them to do interesting things - but I'm not sure how many people write that way. Not really sure if it's a good style of writing even for me, but it's what I do.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby DatabaseError » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:03 am

littlebeast wrote:
Amon Star wrote:
DatabaseError wrote:lots of stuff

Regarding the "No Freewill" issue, I can answer that. Many Authors say the best characters write themselves, completely derailing what the Author originally planned. Therefore, in that case it would be possible for them to be Aware without the loss of Freewill.


Indeed. I actually feel like I have very little control of what's happening in the present of the comic. I can set up situations, yeah, but even I don't know where it's going to go. The best I can do is try to nudge characters in the right direction, which doesn't always work.

Also, no offense meant to anyone, but in real life many people believe in an omnipotent god - how is that any less detracting of free will? Or rather, how is being in a story any more opposed to free will?
(for that matter, how is it any different in any other way - but that's not a discussion for this thread. Well, it might be. But.)

Hmm. I know my stories almost always seem to rely on the characters as the driving force, and the plot is just a way to get them to do interesting things - but I'm not sure how many people write that way. Not really sure if it's a good style of writing even for me, but it's what I do.


Heh. This is more of a personal difference, I guess. When I write, it's typically plot-driven. I know (roughly,) where I want to take the story ahead of time; the characters are vehicles to move the plot. For example, over in the EGS forums, I wanted to get rid of the Admiral with a 'bang,' so I came up with a pretty far-reaching plot which involved him going rogue and taking most of the Navy with him. It's a forum, so I really can't plot everything out as much as I'd like, but I'm still approaching it from the standpoint of already knowing where I want to take it, and then finding an in-character way to take it that direction. In my opinion, I managed to do that. Same thing with much of my non-forum writing; I know what I want to do with the story, and I either create characters to do so, or fit existing characters into it. There is a bit of wiggle-room, though, since I still have to keep them in-character, but I know where things are going and what they'll eventually do.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Amon Star » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:35 pm

DatabaseError wrote:Not necessarily. Maybe that would be the case in something like a free-form RP, where there's no plot, but once you've introduced the idea of an author (which usually means a plot,) you've got a situation where things are more or less "on rails." Sure, there's some wiggle room, but things will likely still happen the way they're supposed to happen for the plot.

Of course, this has a lot to do with my opinion. IMO, characters should evolve from the plot, not the other way around. The point of a story is typically the plot, and the characters are there to advance the plot.

Ah, but that's more a matter of Destiny, isn't it. The characters want to do one thing, but Life keeps pushing them in different directions. They still have Freewill, though.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Keybounce » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:34 am

DatabaseError wrote:... but once you've introduced the idea of an author (which usually means a plot,) you've got a situation where things are more or less "on rails." Sure, there's some wiggle room, but things will likely still happen the way they're supposed to happen for the plot.

Of course, this has a lot to do with my opinion. IMO, characters should evolve from the plot, not the other way around. The point of a story is typically the plot, and the characters are there to advance the plot.


I am a very different view.

An author does not mean a plot. Does not mean rails.
An author means other people -- antagonists and neutagonists (neutral-gonists?) -- who have their own motives, drives, agendas, and situations. An author means the world that you interact with. You affect it, it affects you.

but in real life many people believe in an omnipotent god - how is that any less detracting of free will? Or rather, how is being in a story any more opposed to free will?


Maybe God gives you situations, and how you handle them is your free will?

Maybe some of the people you interact with are "god in disguise", for lack of a better term -- not so much free, independent actors, but NPC's doing what god wants, for you to be the protagonist of your own story with?
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby littlebeast » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:48 am

Keybounce wrote:I am a very different view.

...
>.>
<.<

Keybounce wrote:An author does not mean a plot. Does not mean rails.
An author means other people -- antagonists and neutagonists

This should definitely be a word now.
Keybounce wrote:(neutral-gonists?) -- who have their own motives, drives, agendas, and situations. An author means the world that you interact with. You affect it, it affects you.

Yeah, that's more-or-less my view. Sure, the author is actually putting the words in your mouth, but it's still you who says them.
I don't think that came out quite right.
But basically an author influences the world by creating characters and setting, then letting them loose - not by controlling the characters. With a few, plot-device exceptions.

Keybounce wrote:
littlebeast wrote:but in real life many people believe in an omnipotent god - how is that any less detracting of free will? Or rather, how is being in a story any more opposed to free will?


Maybe God gives you situations, and how you handle them is your free will?

Maybe some of the people you interact with are "god in disguise", for lack of a better term -- not so much free, independent actors, but NPC's doing what god wants, for you to be the protagonist of your own story with?

Basically my point... hmm, let's try an experiment.
Maybe the author gives you situations, and how you handle them is your free will?

Maybe some of the people you interact with are "author in disguise", for lack of a better term -- not so much free, independent actors, but NPC's doing what the author wants, for you to be the protagonist of your own story with?

Yup, looks like the same basic ideas.
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Re: Webcomic Existential Philosophy

Postby Keybounce » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:10 am

littlebeast wrote:
Maybe the author gives you situations, and how you handle them is your free will?

Maybe some of the people you interact with are "author in disguise", for lack of a better term -- not so much free, independent actors, but NPC's doing what the author wants, for you to be the protagonist of your own story with?

Yup, looks like the same basic ideas.

So is that why you have so many authors?
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